Curse

aspi · Nov 10, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

I thought the next skill update was pvp btw. That's waht I remember but seems like I was way wrong.
I still fail to see why some people think discord needs to be fixed. That it is being used by many in combination with broken skills is something else imo.

Xenomortis · Nov 10, 2010, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, just because you don't care about something doesn't make it unimportant. I don't care about GvG, for example, but that doesn't mean I don't think Anet shouldn't devote resources to it.

You've misunderstood what I meant by "care".
What I mean is, right now, it isn't an important issue. The character works fine, he can kill shit and his power level is fine - right now he should not be touched and resources should not be wasted on him.

Scary · Nov 10, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Your argument is basically the same one farmers used to defend SF pre-nerf. They essentially said "if I want to play that way, who cares?"The problem is, it's not all about you.

Even if we ignore the economy (wanna know why nothing that drops has any value? It's because they've all been farmed into worthlessness by overpowered builds!), the fact remains that overpowered builds remove all purpose in playing underpowered ones (we can ignore the "because it's fun" argument because that can be used to justify anything, including builds that outright grief your own team). If the only practical difference between build A and build B is that build A does 50 more dps, then why ever play build B? After all, any build can be "fun", so why not just always use build A when you want to win? There is no reason. Build A's overpoweredness lowers the effective build diversity of the game and makes build B worthless by comparison.

But one big difference !!!!! I no it is not about me. And I wouldn't care less
if SF could not be used anymore... No I say, leave those PvE only skills alone.
It's PvP what needs balance. And as I sayd... I don't farm I don'd do SC's.
So... And who in earth only want to use only build A... if that was the case
I would visit PvX, Which I don't...

A big differnece in what I say comparing to you ( if I understand you right)
Is.. I say, I dont care about NF, but leave the PvE only skills alone.
They are a choice not a obligation to use. So no It is not only about me.
If it where up to you... is nerf the ^$*#^$#^ PvE skills so nobody has any
use of them. Than yo wouldn't have a choice

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 10, 2010, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary

But one big difference !!!!! I no it is not about me. And I wouldn't care less
if SF could not be used anymore... No I say, leave those PvE only skills alone.
It's PvP what needs balance. And as I sayd... I don't farm I don'd do SC's.
So... And who in earth only want to use only build A... if that was the case
I would visit PvX, Which I don't...

A big differnece in what I say comparing to you ( if I understand you right)
Is.. I say, I dont care about NF, but leave the PvE only skills alone.
They are a choice not a obligation to use. So no It is not only about me.
If it where up to you... is nerf the ^$*#^$#^ PvE skills so nobody has any
use of them. Than yo wouldn't have a choice

Seldom has so many words been used to say so little. Basically you could have just said "I don't understand what you're saying, but I disagree". Obviously your perception is not up to par with your eloquent writing skills.

Mireles · Nov 10, 2010, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I love how speculation is asked for when OP implies he has seen leaks to what is actually going to happen....what is the point of this again?

Scary · Nov 10, 2010, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Seldom has so many words been used to say so little. Basically you could have just said "I don't understand what you're saying, but I disagree". Obviously your perception is not up to par with your eloquent writing skills.

That's because I seldom write or speak English. But I'm honored if you goin to
be my spokesmen.

Sankt Hallvard · Nov 10, 2010, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scary

That's because I seldom write or speak English. But I'm honored if you goin to
be my spokesmen.

After seeing how well you deal with sarcasm I'll be your spokesmen any time. Great attitude, I tip my hat to you good sir.

Scary · Nov 10, 2010, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Thank you, considered it done

/backontopic

I still disagree with reaper with no name

drkn · Nov 10, 2010, 02:03 PM // 14:03

ER eles are not used in farming? I always thought that SC is a kind of farming.
Besides, even in balanced groups having an ER ele is much more useful than having a second monk.

Reformed · Nov 10, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If the only practical difference between build A and build B is that build A does 50 more dps, then why ever play build B? After all, any build can be "fun", so why not just always use build A when you want to win? There is no reason. Build A's overpoweredness lowers the effective build diversity of the game and makes build B worthless by comparison.

Obviously you like the ring this has to it or you wouldn't have used the exact same argument in the great Shadow Form debate. It was wrong then and it's still wrong now. The fact that Dervishes don't have anything special to offer in terms of party role is why they are sidelined not this metric of DPS that keeps popping up. If you won't take to heart what others keep telling you then you should probably still pay attention to Ensign, he knows what the hell he is talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Dervish is kinda a funny case. I think it's clearly the 3rd best profession in the game, but the two ahead of it are strictly better and can do everything that it can do plus a whole lot more. So it feels like an inferior class, even though it's still miles ahead of everything else. The other classes do fill valuable support roles, after all, that Dervishes can't.

Karate Jesus · Nov 10, 2010, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

I thought the next skill update was pvp btw.

^ this.

Just to remind everyone, this thread is about speculating the future skill updates, not suggesting what they should be.

As far as I'm aware, there is no talk of discord or SF being changed.

Sytherek · Nov 10, 2010, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Dervish is kinda a funny case. I think it's clearly the 3rd best profession in the game, but the two ahead of it are strictly better and can do everything that it can do plus a whole lot more. So it feels like an inferior class, even though it's still miles ahead of everything else. The other classes do fill valuable support roles, after all, that Dervishes can't.

How would you rank the classes in terms of overall effectiveness? And by what criteria?

I tend to think in terms of "ability to play the entire PvE game" -- the PvE qualifier in place because I don't play PvP anymore. My criteria is: How effectively can I play the class with heroes or people in all areas of the game?

I only have time for a few classes, and I'd order what I play -- in terms fo effectiveness -- as follows: Ritualist, Necromancer, Ranger, Mesmer, Dervish.

In order of time spent playing, however, the order is: Ranger, Ritualist, Necromancer, Mesmer, Dervish. The Rit may be more "effective", but the ranger is more FUN.

Rangers could definitely use some sort of boost, since my ranger does a only third of the damage my Rit does. I can do a steady 75-90 DPS with a standard Spirit Spam on my Rit (boring build, BTW), while my ranger can do no better than 40-45 DPS, no matter what build I use. On the other hand, the Ranger can spike targets and has more control over her damage than does the Rit; spirits tend to be very random in their targeting.

So effectiveness is hard to gauge. I like playing my Ranger because I enjoy the player/pet dynamic, and I feel I have more direct control over the fight; the Rit simply does more damage.

Note that I Vanquish/HM with both Rit and Ranger, though the Rit usually "feels" easier.

In my opinion, the problem with HM is ridiculous enemy armor. The Rit's killing power is not diminished (much) by HM, since spirits ignore armor. For most other classes, they lose significant damage simply because of armor. I often run Mesway with my Rit -- it's vastly overpowered because most of the damage ignores armor. IMHO, this is a core flaw in HM, and creates much of the "imbalance". Get rid of high armor, and instead increase health pools for HM enemies.

HigherMinion · Nov 10, 2010, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Just remove the damage type conversion so that it doesn't anti-synergize with the party support from Blood and Curses.

On the topic of AP, I'd rather not see it nerfed. A large part of the mess that is GW skill balance is the result of a history of Izzy trying to nerf things indirectly and causing collateral damage worse than the problem he "fixed." If you see manlyway as a problem, nerf perma (for real this time). If you see discordway as a problem, nerf discord. Always go for the root cause, otherwise you just make a worse mess.

Nerfing AP to what you may assume be something along the lines of "AP is disabled for x seconds" or whatever, is just an attempt at preventing PvE skill abuse.

If PvE skills cannot be abused, players will be slightly less-inclined to party with eachother, making the 7-hero party setup even more inviting.

FoWsc MoP bar doesn't even use AP either, so... What else can it be fixing?

jazilla · Nov 10, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

If your PvP update predictions come true based on your sources KJ...I am gonna start buying all sorts of Dervish stuff now

Karate Jesus · Nov 10, 2010, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

If your PvP update predictions come true based on your sources KJ...I am gonna start buying all sorts of Dervish stuff now

Make sure and check the dates on those. The derv update is "supposedly" set to be done before Christmas, and that's just based on rumor and various sources. It's not 100%, and Anet is known for last minute changes.

A lot of those changes could be PvE-only; however, I doubt it. Splitting PvE/PvP skills further convolutes the client which has been proven to degrade it. I think they're avoiding splitting skills as much as possible.

Ensign · Nov 10, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sytherek

How would you rank the classes in terms of overall effectiveness? And by what criteria?

There are a lot of different things you can do in end-game PvE; Guardian/Vanquish, speed clears, farming. It's a totally non-scientific weighting of all of these.

My personal list would be something like:

1. Assassin: Shadow Form is lol. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (good scythe, but no SY!). Good non-scythe damage with SY!

2. Warrior: Hundred Blades lol. Top tier AoHM Scythe (good scythe, SY!). Top tier non-scythe SY! and damage.

3. Dervish. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (ok scythe, with SY!)

4. Necromancer. Top tier AP (MoP lol?). Minions. Soul Reaping powered support (weapons, smiting, Orders if your melee isn't using scythes. Great versatility as a support character.

5. Ritualist. Signet of Spirits (and so many other spirits!). Splinter Weapon. Lots of utility and reasonably versatile.

6. Elementalist. Ether Renewal lol. Ok AP.

7. Paragon. Good SY! with TNTF; can carry bad teams.

8. Mesmer. Has an AP build. Panic I guess.

9. Monk. Can cast Heal Party.

10. Ranger. I guess you can use a scythe?

So in rough order it's something like:

Shadow Form
AoHM Scythe
Instagib AoE bombs
Save Yourselves
Summoning a wall of trash mobs
Ether Renewal
Assassin's Promise

Everything else is garbage/filler tier. Only Assassin, Warrior, Necromancer, and Ritualist are strong and versatile. Dervish, Elementalist, and Paragon are one trick ponies but those tricks are really good. AP-shouts sneaks in at the bottom and is the only thing that makes nuke playable outside CCCCOMBO! farms. Everything else is too fair to matter much.

Karate Jesus · Nov 10, 2010, 06:42 PM // 18:42

I can't believe Mesmer made 8th on your list.

Armor-ignoring damage, Panic, and PI apparently aren't high on your list

However, ranking any profession in GW is going to be based on opinion. I would say, though, that most people would probably place the Dervish, Paragon, and Ranger in their bottom half of PvE (and possibly the Ele, if they do HM).

All of that is off-topic, though.

Jaigoda · Nov 10, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Copypasta from Ensign.

1. Assassin: Shadow Form is lol. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (good scythe, but no SY!). Good non-scythe damage with SY!

2. Warrior: Hundred Blades lol. Top tier AoHM Scythe (good scythe, SY!). Top tier non-scythe SY! and damage.

3. Dervish. Tier-2 AoHM Scythe (ok scythe, with SY!)

4. Ritualist. Spirit Spamming is broken. Splinter Weapon. Lots of utility and the second most versatile class. Likely the second best class for farming.

5. Necromancer. Top tier AP (MoP lol?). Minions. Soul Reaping powered support (weapons, smiting, Orders if your melee isn't using scythes. Best overall versatility of a profession, but can't match the outright damage and healing of human melees and monks, respectively. Almost anything a Necro can do can be done just about as well by a hero. Curses and Blood rely on melees.

6. Mesmer. Panic lol. PI lol. good AP, best class for all-caster teams. Great utility, good damage.

7. Monk. You gotta have one, pretty much. Worst prof for H/H though, and probably the worst prof for damage, besides maybe ele.

8. Paragon. Good SY! with TNTF; can carry bad teams.

9. Elementalist. Ether Renewal lol. Pretty much nothing else.

10. Ranger. Bows suck, anything they have (daggers, scythes, and spirits, basically), can be done by other prof's far more effectively.

Also, that post by Ensign earlier basically won the whole thread.

Ensign · Nov 10, 2010, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I can't believe Mesmer made 8th on your list.

Armor-ignoring damage, Panic, and PI apparently aren't high on your list

Panic is why Mesmer made it to 8th. You think Panic is better than Ether Renewal powering Prot Bond? I have no issues flipping Mesmer and Paragon, though respect Paragon for being able to singlehandedly carry mismatched garbage.

We're talking about player bars here, not hero bars. A player 'nuke' bar is going to be Assassin's Promise powering 3 PvE skills, and in the Necro's case Mark of Pain. The rest is filler. Necros have Soul Reaping, and Eles have the constantly recharging GLE to power everything on top of AP. Mesmers run dry spamming shouts, and really don't have a lot of strong spike skills or force multipliers to really maximize the AP.

If you aren't using AP, you're casting spells; sure, they ignore armor, but do 75 damage with a small AoE. In the meantime, melee is autoattacking twice as often and hitting twice as hard, plus buffs, plus skill damage, plus setting off splinter bombs, plus spamming Save Yourselves so no one ever dies.

Assassin's Promise with shouts is the only reason casters have any purpose other than healing or buffing melee, or summoning a ton of crap to wand things. Mesmers don't do that any better than other casters, and don't have another broken role, so they are low tier.

As for Dervishes - they autoattack in an AoE for 150, set off splinter bombs, and spam Save Yourselves. Why are they bad? They aren't. That's just all they can do, and Warriors do that better.

drkn · Nov 10, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

There are a lot of different things you can do in end-game PvE; Guardian/Vanquish, speed clears, farming. It's a totally non-scientific weighting of all of these.

My personal list would be something like:

As noted by yourself, it's your personal list - aka your personal preference. Not the real usefulness of classes.
A class is as useful as the player rolling it. As it's build. As it's synergy with other chars/heroes present during the VQ/mission. There are builds that are severely broken and can achieve a lot (sin/war with scythe, SF in general, ER ele, spiritmancer...) but that's the problem of builds, not classes - and if we rank them, a more hollistic approach should be taken.
The reason why you ranked mes on 8th position and ranger as the last is that you a) have never really played them; or b) couldn't play them on a decent level; or c) had less fun when playing them than when playing your top classes.
And that's fine, but just keep in mind that 'ranking classes by their general usefulness' is totally subjective, much because the classes are very complex and have wide variety of roles, skills, builds and options to run.

Because of that, i'd rather settle down to discussing broken mechanics and builds rather than classes. Dervishes are cool, but the two obvious problems are that a) other classes can do better with their primairy weapon; and b) their primairy attribute is generally useless (just as FC used to be, but got a tad buffed in PvE, and with that little Mindbender nerf it turned out quite ok).